Champions' League 2013/2014

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Bartek
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Champions' League 2013/2014

Postby Bartek » Wed May 01, 2013 12:22 pm

I read yesterday that Team Tvis Holstebro from Denmark as EHF Cup Finalist will play in one of the CL qualification tournaments.

Does Anyone know who else will play in such tournaments, who without eliminations.

Write here please :-)



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Re: Champions' League 2013/2014

Postby Christian » Wed May 01, 2013 1:32 pm

Bartek wrote:I read yesterday that Team Tvis Holstebro from Denmark as EHF Cup Finalist will play in one of the CL qualification tournaments.

Does Anyone know who else will play in such tournaments, who without eliminations.

Write here please :-)


Some explanations here : http://europamester.dk/news.htm#12

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Re: Champions' League 2013/2014

Postby 123123 » Wed May 01, 2013 2:05 pm

TT Holstebro is qualified because they're certain to end up as top 2 in Denmark.

Current standings in many of the national league can be found at the top left here at handball123.com (Handball News in yellow). Also there are threads for some of the bigger leagues.
The rankings for season 13-14:
#1 Denmark
#2 Hungary
#3 Russia
#4 Spain
#5 Norway
#6 Romania
#7 Germany
#...

The top 2 teams of all these national competitions goes to CL, where the first place is directly qualified and the second placed team gets to CL qualification. This means if TTH defeats FCM in the danish championship final, TTH will be directly qualified, and if they lose, they'll have to play qualifications for CL, iIRC.

Nations ranking eight to twenty four gets one contender in CL, some directly qualified for group stage, others have to play the qualification tournament. I'm uncertain how the 3x4=12 teams directly qualified for group stage is decided because this season Serbia (12) ranked higher than Croatia (13), yet Podravka was directly qualified for group stage and Zajecar wasn't (Sävehof was directly qualified too, despite Sweden only placed as 19). Just guessing here, but IF it's due to the club's individual performance, it can be seen that Podravka had a higher performance score than Zajecar this season as well as the following one:
http://www.eurotopteams.com/handball/femmehand.php.

IF this club score is deciding, then Hypo and Podravka, despite Austria and Croatia only being ranked 13 and 18 respectively, are both likely to go directly to the CL group stage. But there's also the matter that this season, France and Spain lost spots, and therefore it might be that in the following season both Hypo and Podravka will participate in the qualification tournament. I honestly don't know.

The teams qualified from their respective tournaments will probably (not certain about the specific rules for each league, if there's a "slutspil", etc.) be:
FCM group stage or qual (Denmark)
TT Holstebro group stage or qual (Denmark)
Györ group stage (Hungary)
FTC Budapest qual (Hungary)
Dinamo Volgograd group stage (Russia)
Rostov Don / Zvezda Zvenigorod qual (Russia)
Due to bad economy in Spain I am not certain if these teams will decide to participate, but currently Bera Bera is in the lead ahead of Elche-Mustand and Gran Canaria (Spain)
Larvik HK group stage (Norway)
Byaasen T qual (Norway)
Oltchim Valcea group stage (Romania)
Baia Mare (?) qual (Romania)
Thüringer HC group stage (Germany)
Leipzig qual (Germany)
Metz M group stage (France)
Buducnost Podgorica group stage (Montenegro)
Krim Ljubljana group stage (Slovenia)
Zajecar group stage or qual (Serbia)
You tell me: http://personel.thf.gov.tr/BilgiBankasi.aspx?Personel=PuanDurumu group stage or qual (Turkey) ((Ranked #12))
Hypo N group stage or qual (Austria)
SPR Lublin qual (Poland)
Sävehof group stage or qual (Sweden)
VOC Amsterdam qual (Netherlands)
ZRK Varder Skopje qual (Makedonia)
Podravka V group stage or qual (Croatia)
HC Smart qual (Urkaine)
Ormi Patra??? qual (Greece)
Madeira SAD??? qual (Portugal)
Sassari??? qual (Italy)
LC Brühl??? qual (Switzerland)
BNTU Minsk??? qual (Belarus)

We can be pretty confident the following teams are directly qualified for group stage:
FCM / TTH
Györ
Volgograd
Bera Bera / Elche / Canaria (if they participate)
Larvik HK
Oltchim Valcea
Thüringer HC / Leipzig
Metz / Fleury / Issy
Buducnost
Krim

For the last two spots it'll be two of these five, I believe: Zajecar, Turkish #1, Hypo, Podravka, or Sävehof.

Then there might be a wild card group as well, that's if some teams doesn't participate, such as the spanish teams, or teams from lower ranked nations, which can't afford it or don't have sufficient facilities to play CL. The only team in the list I wrote which I do not recognize as previously having played CL is Minsk, all the other teams I'm pretty confident can manage to have the facilities required as they've participated in CL before or are a club of a certain size and wealth.

Source: http://cms.eurohandball.com/PortalData/1/Resources/1_ehf_main/Placedistribution1314_WOMEN.pdf

Since you took the stand points from TTH, I think I'll add a little more.
TT Holstebro will most likely play qualification for CL (though they might as well get directly qualified), and then it's interesting to wonder about what teams are best to avoid.

I'm not certain how the seedings are formed, so without regard to seed, the following teams will probably be best avoided in the qualification to CL process:
FTC Budapest, Rostov Don / Zvezda Z, Hypo N, ZRK Varder (?), Podravka V.
Obviously TT Holstebro can't be in the same seed with all those five teams as there are only 4 teams in each seed. TTH have however in their 3 seasons in Europe manage to qualify for 2 finals, one which they might win. Further more they're the second best team of the currently highest ranked league. As such, I believe TT Holstebro might be seeded with the highest ranked teams. These will probably be FTC Budapest, and Hypo and Podravka if they have to play qualifications for CL and aren't directly qualified. It might as well be Rostov Don as Russia have gone up the league ranking list. In that case, Holstebro will probably not have that many teams they absolutely must avoid, though it's tough to tell, and would be nice if someone with more knowledge could add.

Finally I think it should be noted that Viborg were seed low two seasons ago, because they entered on a wild card in stead of a team with a lower seeding. As such Viborg got said seeding and had to play Rostov Don and Cluj, whereas RHK with a high seeding had to play Amsterdam and Sävehof, iIRC.

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Re: Champions' League 2013/2014

Postby Gerzson » Wed May 01, 2013 3:13 pm

I think it's very important to stress that the ranking list only determines the number of qualifying teams from each league, but NOT their seedings. Seedings in CL are after the past results in the CL only, therefore teams like Hypo and Podravka are automatically on the main table. If you remember, there was even an argument over that why the otherwise weak Croatian championship can have a team in the group stage. However, I think it's a very good system, given that for example Turkey earned all its points in lower level competitions (Muratpasa reached the finals of the last two Challenge Cup editions, while this season they played in the CL qualies and lost all of their matches badly), while Podravka showed its class in every year in the CL.

So, the seedings - concerning the past results and the moves on the ranking tables - should look the following:

First pot: DEN2, HUN2, RUS2, NOR2
Second pot: ROU2, GER2, ESP2, SWE1
Third pot: SRB1, POL1, MKD1, NED1*

*A big question mark for me is where to put the extra place of the title holder's league. Recently, they got either allocated to pot 2 or pot 3, which means the whole seeding has to be moved one down.

The rest depends on the system EHF will use (better said on how many teams will participate, will there be any withdrawal, etc.). There might be a pre-qualification tournament if there are 8 teams or so (2 groups of 4 for the reamaining 4 places in the pot4), or they might use the system they used this year, whatever. Though I don't think so the top teams should be afraid of these teams.

Additionally, I think a Wild Card tournament is essential. There are at least four teams (DEN3, RUS3, GER3, FRA2) that are, I dare to say, CL level. It would be a big mistake not to give them a chance. Personally, I could even imagine four groups of 5 in the CL group stage, there are so many great teams!

Wow, I had to "edit out" a sentence in which I lament over that either EHF Cup finalist Metz of CWC finalist Issy won't be there in the CL next year. Err.. :cry:

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Re: Champions' League 2013/2014

Postby 123123 » Wed May 01, 2013 3:53 pm

Thanks for clarifying. :)

Yes it's a real shame that France only gets one team in CL now when they've several strong contenders. If Spain withdraws, will France get 2 spots?

In my subjective opinion, the following teams from each seed as presented by Gerzson are bad to draw:

First pot: DEN2, HUN2, RUS2
Second pot: GER2, SWE1
Third pot: SRB1, MKD1

The teams good to draw would be:

First pot: NOR2
Second pot: ROU2, ESP2
Third pot: POL1, NED1*

But we've seen many times before that e.g. ROU2 defeating SRB1, or POL1 playing equally with GER2, so while there'll be preferences, I think most teams have a good chance at making great results.

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Re: Champions' League 2013/2014

Postby Germanicus » Thu May 02, 2013 1:23 pm

- Wild card holder (i.e. extra team from title holder's country) is usually ranked in qualifications pot 1.
- If any team withdraws, EHF has the right to decide what would happen. Last year (I mean this current season) the ranks FRA1 and ESP1 were simply removed, SWE1 ware taken into group pot 3 (rank #11) and for the remaining place (rank #12) a wild card tournament was hold (won by Zvezda). I think we can not see now what will happen if any team withdraws.
In conclusion, I declare that EHF must be destroyed

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Re: Champions' League 2013/2014

Postby Gerzson » Tue May 07, 2013 1:42 pm

123123 wrote: If Spain withdraws, will France get 2 spots?


The general rule is that a non-champion cannot get an automatic spot in the group stage. So if the Spanish champion withdraws, then neither the Spanish runner-up, nor the highest ranked (DEN2?) team in the qualifications can get its place. EHF may decide to promote the highest ranked champion (SWE1) or give it out in a WC tournament. Also, if SWE1 would be in the group phase this way, their place might be taken by a FRA2 (I'd love this idea), or they may give this empty spot to Viborg (as happened many times before). So there are many ways, but for the sake of handball the best would be if we'd get over this year's qualifications without any withdrawal.

Btw. the real question for me is, since in the current system there's no room for a WC place, that will there even be a WC tournament? (If there ain't no any vis major, ie. withdrawal, financial struggle, etc.)

Germanicus wrote:- Wild card holder (i.e. extra team from title holder's country) is usually ranked in qualifications pot 1.


Actually that is not true. The team got its place via this way cannot and have never been been in pot one. They can be on the bottom of the 2nd pot at best, as a third ranked team cannot be listed ahead of a second ranked one. (ie. DEN3 cannot have a better seed than GER2).

In 2010 it was Vejen who got the place (pot2) as pot1 team and eventual qualification winner was DVSC.
In 2011 Tertnes earned the spot (pot2) and Randers was its pot 1 opponent
In 2012 the Montegrin second had the right to participate, however, they opted not to do so...

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Re: Champions' League 2013/2014

Postby meteo » Thu May 09, 2013 8:13 pm

uh, this thread get's already chaotic at this point ;)

Let's take a look on 12/13-seeding and the "first provisional seeding"):

1) Title defender is always seeded on 1
2) Seeding Spots are based on the results from the teams that participate for one federation in one competition in the last three years
3) The semi-finals in 12/13 weren't too different to 11/12-season.
So the only question marks in Pot 1 will be Buducnost or Krim! - Larvik, Györ and Oltchim shall be safe.
4) POT 2: Danish champion (FCM/TTH), Russian Champion (Dinamo), German Champion (THC/HCL) + Krim/Buducnost
5) POT 3: Hypo and Podravka shall be safe. Also French champion (Metz/Fleury). One question mark is spanish champion (Bera Bera/Elche). I think it's possible that Bera Bera will announce participating. So there is no chance to place the wild card in this pot, but maximum in qualification.
6) All other teams shall play qualification. (Sävehof got direct spot because Itxako withdrew, Wildcard was becaues of bankruptcy of Arvor)
And the qualification pots shall be allocated compared to the pots in the direct group stage (remember Biseri withdrew so DEN 2 was lifted up).
Greetings from Germany

"The best is yet to come": Barack Obama (06.11.12) quotes Holly Lam-Moores (30.07.12)

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Re: Champions' League 2013/2014

Postby Bo$ko » Thu May 09, 2013 8:43 pm

Budućnost is 100% in first pot :!:
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Re: Champions' League 2013/2014

Postby meteo » Fri May 10, 2013 8:00 pm

I think too, but there it should be noted were Buducnost was in 2011. Last year they make plus against Krim, this year they lost points against them. And the most deciding - how was the season that is now eliminated in opposite to last seeding.

09/10 Krim Main Round 3rd, Buducnost group stage 3rd - eliminated
________________________________________________
10/11 Krim Main Round 3rd, Buducnost semifinal
11/12 Krim Main Round 3rd, Buducnost winner
12/13 Krim semifinal, Main round 3rd

=> Buducnost most likely before Krim because of 11/12. ;)
Greetings from Germany

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Re: Champions' League 2013/2014

Postby Bo$ko » Wed May 15, 2013 2:24 pm

According to Podravka's site :
CL 2013/14 Rankings
------------
1. Györ
2. Larvik
3. Budućnost
4. Oltchim
------------
5. Krim
6. Bera Bera
7. Dinamo
8. FCM
------------
9. Thüringer
10. Metz
11. Hypo
12. Podravka
Last edited by Bo$ko on Sat May 25, 2013 9:14 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Champions' League 2013/2014

Postby meteo » Wed May 15, 2013 2:50 pm

ESP1 = Bera Bera
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Re: Champions' League 2013/2014

Postby 123123 » Wed May 15, 2013 2:56 pm

Györ will probably be gold favorites next season as well, right?

Which teams would you like to avoid from pot1-3 and which team would you like to draw from pot1-3 from Bo$ko's list? :)

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Re: Champions' League 2013/2014

Postby Corbantis » Wed May 15, 2013 2:56 pm

Bo$ko wrote:According to Podravka's site :
CL 2013/14 Rankings
------------
1. Györ
2. Larvik
3. Budućnost
4. Oltchim
------------
5. Krim
6. ESP1 >>> BM Bera Bera is the actual Spanish champion
7. Dinamo
8. DEN1 >>> either TTH or FCM
------------
9. Thüringer
10. FRA1 >>> either Metz or Fleury
11. Hypo
12. Podravka
Last edited by Corbantis on Wed May 15, 2013 3:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Champions' League 2013/2014

Postby Bo$ko » Wed May 15, 2013 3:02 pm

It's a question if Bera Bera will accept to play CL. If not, THC will move in pot2 and maybe there will be another Wild Card Tournament.

@123123, of course everyone wants Bera Bera and Podravka... 8:)
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Re: Champions' League 2013/2014

Postby Bo$ko » Wed May 15, 2013 3:07 pm

It'll be interesting if we'll have Vardar in group of FTC or VHK. One team will say goodbye to CL groups.
I only hope FTC and Vardar won't be drawn in the same group, I want them both in CL.
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Re: Champions' League 2013/2014

Postby Corbantis » Wed May 15, 2013 3:11 pm

Bo$ko wrote:It'll be interesting if we'll have Vardar in group of FTC or VHK. One team will say goodbye to CL groups.
I only hope FTC and Vardar won't be drawn in the same group, I want them both in CL.


No worries, FTC will take CWC Trophy in this case :)

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Re: Champions' League 2013/2014

Postby Aikurn » Thu May 16, 2013 10:05 am

Bo$ko wrote:It's a question if Bera Bera will accept to play CL.


My guess is they will. Bera Bera is one of few Spanish teams with a healthy economy and they already tried to qualify last year. That said, if they decided to save the money I wouldn't be surprised, just a bit disappointed that I won't be able to watch CL live at the arena.

In any case, Bera Bera doesn't have the level to play CL. They struggled even in CWC. I don't see them winning against any of those teams. Whoever gets them (if they play) will be very very lucky.

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Re: Champions' League 2013/2014

Postby barry.romania » Mon May 20, 2013 6:03 pm

Baia Mare definitely participate with some beautiful players like Timea Tătar (pivot), Aneta Pârvuţ (right wing) or Renata Ghionea (left back). Smedescu, Geiger and Buceschi were loaned there from Oltchim. unfortunately Buceschi will be back at Râmnicu Vâlcea but Smedescu and Geiger were signed.

they also transferred Gabriella Szűcs from Zalău and Marin best player from Roman. =D>

all these players that I`ve mention are in the national pool.
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Re: Champions' League 2013/2014

Postby Aikurn » Tue May 21, 2013 5:07 pm

Spain's second team Elche Mustang is said to have no intention to participate in CL Qualification. They will try to enter EHF Cup instead, if they get enough money for it.

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Re: Champions' League 2013/2014

Postby OltchimRmValcea » Fri May 24, 2013 10:40 pm

:shock:
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"Shock in romanian handball
last eight handball players are free to leave
team will withdraw from Champions League
"

speechless...i'm totally shocked.
3 weeks ago, oltchim announced "the plans" for new season and now....
L. Hutupan-Dinu, V. Ardean-Elisei, Cristina Neagu, O. Manea, I. Stanca, M. Jovanovic, Y. Ozel, R. Maier.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyKvP63kFHw

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Re: Champions' League 2013/2014

Postby mikh » Fri May 24, 2013 11:17 pm

The other Romanian newspaper isn't being so dramatic about it. Yes, they are announcing the situation is bad, but we all know "the tabloid" likes to exaggerate things. Let's wait and see what happens. Overall, Vâlcea is the biggest women handball center in Romania, so even if they won't win the title for a few years, with the right people in charge of management, they could be able to come back. But again, let's wait and see.

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Re: Champions' League 2013/2014

Postby OltchimRmValcea » Fri May 24, 2013 11:36 pm

mikh wrote:they are announcing the situation is bad, but we all know "the tabloid" likes to exaggerate things.

For this time, they don't exaggerate.

let's wait and see... what? the end of story
i think nobody can solve the problem. it's clear.
We are use to destroy all these beautiful 'stories' from this country.
L. Hutupan-Dinu, V. Ardean-Elisei, Cristina Neagu, O. Manea, I. Stanca, M. Jovanovic, Y. Ozel, R. Maier.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyKvP63kFHw

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Re: Champions' League 2013/2014

Postby mikh » Fri May 24, 2013 11:54 pm

OltchimRmValcea wrote:let's wait and see... what? the end of story


An official position, to start with. Anyway, not much we can do in front of our computers, is it?
Then, teams have "died" and came back: FTC, Budućnost, Brașov (slowly, but promising). Let's not bury this team while they're still breathing. As I said, Vâlcea has the human resources to continue having competitive handball. It's a matter of WHO wants to get involved, but seriously this time.

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Re: Champions' League 2013/2014

Postby Silviu » Fri May 24, 2013 11:55 pm

So Mr. Roibu is bankrupt? :D
Seriously now, I don't buy it, but I also don't buy a 1.5 mil. budget. The truth is somewhere in the middle. From what I know, the club is trying to bring back Mr. Gavrilescu as president, while Mr. Berbecaru will retire. Mr. Roibu will pay further, but yes, the situation is not good.


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