Final Four - Women's edition

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zotya94
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Final Four - Women's edition

Postby zotya94 » Wed Jul 24, 2013 4:52 pm

I'm not sure if this is worth a new topic, but I guess it is really interesting in terms. So we have Final Four at the girls too, EHF gave it a green light so I guess cities with big sport centres will bid, as I'm Hungarian I hope that it will be held at Budapest, which would be good cuz except Nowegian and Danish club all the best teams reside kinda close to Budapest, well Spanish and French a bit further away but they may travel with plane.

So how do you feel about this new option/decision?



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Re: Final Four - Women's edition

Postby John » Wed Jul 24, 2013 5:39 pm

No, just no.
I don't like it.
I like the way it is now. More games, more interestng matches.

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Re: Final Four - Women's edition

Postby Marco Aurelio » Wed Jul 24, 2013 6:00 pm

Budapest is the obvious choice, since only one team is certainly in the Top 4, and it is Győr (beeing kind of the World All Star Team). And ETO would fill the László Papp Arena alone.

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Re: Final Four - Women's edition

Postby doomark » Wed Jul 24, 2013 6:05 pm

John wrote:I like the way it is now. More games, more interestng matches.


I respect your opinion, but with the Final4 happening there would be the exact numbers of matches like in previous seasons.

By the way, there will be a new format for next season also, as all third placed teams from the group phase will go to the Main Round. There it´ll be six teams each two groups. Points will be taken collected against teams in the MR. First four will quality for quarter-finals, then Final4.

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Re: Final Four - Women's edition

Postby Germanicus » Wed Jul 24, 2013 6:12 pm

doomark wrote:
John wrote:I like the way it is now. More games, more interestng matches.

I respect your opinion, but with the Final4 happening there would be the exact numbers of matches like in previous seasons.

Please, how did you calculate it? As far as I know (correct me if I'm wrong), group matches and main groups will be organized just like in previous season. Semifinals (2×2) and finals (2×1) was, all together, 6 games. In FF it's only 4. For a team, it was 4 games, in FF only 2.
What do you know what I don't? :-)
In conclusion, I declare that EHF must be destroyed

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Re: Final Four - Women's edition

Postby John » Wed Jul 24, 2013 6:55 pm

doomark wrote:I respect your opinion, but with the Final4 happening there would be the exact numbers of matches like in previous seasons.

By the way, there will be a new format for next season also, as all third placed teams from the group phase will go to the Main Round. There it´ll be six teams each two groups. Points will be taken collected against teams in the MR. First four will quality for quarter-finals, then Final4.



Whaaaaaat?? Are they crazy? That's just stupid if you ask me.
First 3 from GP to the MR ](*,)
What's wrong with how it is now? It's perfect.

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Re: Final Four - Women's edition

Postby doomark » Wed Jul 24, 2013 7:36 pm

Germanicus wrote:What do you know what I don't? :-)


It seems that I was spaced when I wrote it, obviously you´re right, sorry. ;-)

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Re: Final Four - Women's edition

Postby Des57 » Wed Jul 24, 2013 9:15 pm

Marco Aurelio wrote:Budapest is the obvious choice, since only one team is certainly in the Top 4, and it is Győr (beeing kind of the World All Star Team). And ETO would fill the László Papp Arena alone.


:doubt: :lol:
Changing the system it's a terible decision.Why ruin something that works?And having Budapest as the eternal host.Just no.

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Re: Final Four - Women's edition

Postby Marco Aurelio » Wed Jul 24, 2013 11:22 pm

Des57 wrote:
Marco Aurelio wrote:Budapest is the obvious choice, since only one team is certainly in the Top 4, and it is Győr (beeing kind of the World All Star Team). And ETO would fill the László Papp Arena alone.


:doubt: :lol:
Changing the system it's a terible decision.Why ruin something that works?And having Budapest as the eternal host.Just no.


I don't like the format change either.
And I didn't say anything about "eternal" hosting.
But for this season, if they go for sure, they have to choose Budapest.

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Re: Final Four - Women's edition

Postby mikh » Thu Jul 25, 2013 12:31 am

Well, I like the idea of F4. And I think it's the right time to implement it.
The Women CL has problems being sold as a sporting product, compared to the men competition.
Despite all criticism (I am also thinking of mine), EHF is a federation that is making efforts to function in the best interest of the sport it represents and EHF marketing has done a great job until now (especially for men handball). The problem is: how to take this nice product which women handball and make it more appealing to fans and sponsors? And no one can deny that women handball lacks both these things.

A F4 is a good solution: it's been proved to work, other sports (basketball, voleyball) already successfully use it, it can be easily sold in different ways (if you can't find a sponsor for the competition as a whole, maybe there will be someone interested to associate itself at least with the F4, to start with) and it can help this part of handball to better evolve (there is a certain lack of quality teams right now; most of them seem just average, compared to the perennial favorites; I would like to have as many quality teams as in men handball, but money in women handball is obviously a huge issue).

About next year, I also like the idea of a 6 teams MR, but i am not sure how having 3 out of 4 teams qualifying from the PR, will make the competition interesting. Also, this might decrease the level of the EHF Cup which has benefited lately from the addition of the 3rd placed teams from the PR (but I guess this could be solved by sending places 3-4 from the MR to the EHF cup).

About organizing rights. What I would do for the first year would be to send this thing to Koeln too and make a huuuuge handball weekend (kind of like the French Cup Finals weekend). I would alternate between men and women matches and the women could benefit from the crowd the men event attracts plus all the buzz generated around the event itself (who has tried the Koeln event until now, knows what I am talking about). I think this could really boost both women handball and the F4 concept.
If later the marketing guys realize that the fan base for separate events could be significantly consistent (I didn't use "equally"!), then they could separate them, in which case I think Budapest is a good idea. Veszprem too. But so could be any large arena in Central Europe (Ljubljana, Prague, Belgrade, several in Poland) or in Scandinavia (Larvik, Stockholm, several in Denmark) and there are a few more...

Anyway, these are just my opinions and some thoughts of how I'd see this competition evolving. But overall, [and I don't say this too often], great job EHF :thumleft:

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Re: Final Four - Women's edition

Postby John » Thu Jul 25, 2013 1:33 am

Oh, another thing... A lot of fans can't support their team in their most important match.
I want to watch my team playing the final in my country, in my city and have the support of the whole hall and not just 100 fans who happen to be Varvari who follow Buducnost wherever they go.
Final four in Budapest: 4900 Hungarians and 100 Montenegrins, yeah right (i took Buducnost as an example, i could've picked any other team, Larvik etc). Same goes if the FF is played in Podgorica or Ljubljana or any other city.
Home and away matches are better and fair.
And the idea of 6 teams in MR is just silly and stupid.

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Re: Final Four - Women's edition

Postby mikh » Thu Jul 25, 2013 5:49 am

John wrote:Oh, another thing... A lot of fans can't support their team in their most important match.
I want to watch my team playing the final in my country, in my city and have the support of the whole hall and not just 100 fans who happen to be Varvari who follow Buducnost wherever they go.
Final four in Budapest: 4900 Hungarians and 100 Montenegrins, yeah right (i took Buducnost as an example, i could've picked any other team, Larvik etc). Same goes if the FF is played in Podgorica or Ljubljana or any other city.


Can't agree with you here. All these cities you've mentioned, except for Scandinavia, are quite close and easily connectable. Fans travel between them anyway and I think a F4 would be a good incentive for more fans to travel around Europe.
Scandinavians travel around Europe for all their teams anyway, so no problem there.
Kielce fans were very numerous in Koeln this year and they created a better atmosphere than Germans.
With all this crisis and considering that they don't have a very well established fan-base, even the Catalans were there in decent number.
Plus, the atmosphere that is creating by the mingling of all these fans around such an event is great!

John wrote:Home and away matches are better and fair.

Fair? Almost :) You forget about home-court advantage in the second match. So even this system is not fully fair.
Better? Can't see why. You'd have to give a reason for this. If it's your personal preference, that's a bit different.

John wrote:And the idea of 6 teams in MR is just silly and stupid.

Again, you should give a reason.
First you were complaining about less matches. PR + MR + 1/4 + F4 gives you a bit more matches. You could argue that it's a bit of a lazy system to cut down on teams (4 + 4 eliminated after each group round), but considering there are a lot of level teams right now, this will definitely make the competition more interesting.

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Re: Final Four - Women's edition

Postby Bob Rock » Thu Jul 25, 2013 7:15 am

Final 4 is not good idea at all, IMO.
As for Hungary, that was suggested here, it would be 100 fans from Scandinavia, Montenegro or Slovenia, and 4900 Hungarians ](*,)
So if one wants to be fair, and Final 4 is still 'must do', than final 4 should be organized on neutral court. But yet again, in case of neutral court, handball loses in my opinion, because there is high chance to have empty stands in some fifth country, when teams from other 4 countries are playing...
That is why home and away games should be kept, I believe.

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Re: Final Four - Women's edition

Postby Marco Aurelio » Thu Jul 25, 2013 7:29 am

Bob Rock wrote:Final 4 is not good idea at all, IMO.
As for Hungary, that was suggested here, it would be 100 fans from Scandinavia, Montenegro or Slovenia, and 4900 Hungarians ](*,)
So if one wants to be fair, and Final 4 is still 'must do', than final 4 should be organized on neutral court. But yet again, in case of neutral court, handball loses in my opinion, because there is high chance to have empty stands in some fifth country, when teams from other 4 countries are playing...
That is why home and away games should be kept, I believe.


Well, the László Papp Arena in Budapest has +10000 capacity.
And believe me, the Norvegian oldies usually appear there with much more than 100 people. Just look at the 2004 ECh finals. :)

Any other venue can not guarantee a packed house this year.
Köln is not a great idea.
Organising it together with the mens event would mean taking the thing away from the fem.handball supporters. + losing money.

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Re: Final Four - Women's edition

Postby Bob Rock » Thu Jul 25, 2013 7:45 am

Marco Aurelio wrote:
Bob Rock wrote:Final 4 is not good idea at all, IMO.
As for Hungary, that was suggested here, it would be 100 fans from Scandinavia, Montenegro or Slovenia, and 4900 Hungarians ](*,)
So if one wants to be fair, and Final 4 is still 'must do', than final 4 should be organized on neutral court. But yet again, in case of neutral court, handball loses in my opinion, because there is high chance to have empty stands in some fifth country, when teams from other 4 countries are playing...
That is why home and away games should be kept, I believe.


Well, the László Papp Arena in Budapest has +10000 capacity.
And believe me, the Norvegian oldies usually appear there with much more than 100 people. Just look at the 2004 ECh finals. :)

Any other venue can not guarantee a packed house this year.
Köln is not a great idea.
Organising it together with the mens event would mean taking the thing away from the fem.handball supporters. + losing money.



I have to disagree. European Championship is one thing, you as spectator can plan it a year ahead, while team competition is something completely different, and you know earliest in April will your team be in SF or not.
So, given that that their teams are in top 4, and if it is in Hungary, I am 99% sure that there will not be more than 150/200 Larvik fans, or Buducnost fans or Krim fans, or whoever might be in Final 4…
Lets be real here, handball is not football, and 90% of fans see the games only at home.

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Re: Final Four - Women's edition

Postby mikh » Thu Jul 25, 2013 7:58 am

Ok, so besides the spectators argument [which is rather a supposition - we'd have to wait and see what happens] I see no other reasons against it.
I think this decision had to be taken at some point (this was the intention since the rebranding of the men competition). I really think women handball is falling behind on the marketing and competitions sectors, despite having equally charismatic stars as the men handball and one can notice a rise in the technical level.
Whether this will happen or not, we will see. Whether it is a good idea or not can ONLY be seen after you experiment it. I re-state my trust in the marketing dept. of the EHF which has proved its professionalism with the men competition. And one can not say that they are not trying to do more for the women competitions (which are a bit of Cinderellas in terms of... well... everything, besides interest from fans).

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Re: Final Four - Women's edition

Postby Bob Rock » Thu Jul 25, 2013 8:32 am

mikh wrote:Ok, so besides the spectators argument [which is rather a supposition - we'd have to wait and see what happens] I see no other reasons against it.
I think this decision had to be taken at some point (this was the intention since the rebranding of the men competition). I really think women handball is falling behind on the marketing and competitions sectors, despite having equally charismatic stars as the men handball and one can notice a rise in the technical level.
Whether this will happen or not, we will see. Whether it is a good idea or not can ONLY be seen after you experiment it. I re-state my trust in the marketing dept. of the EHF which has proved its professionalism with the men competition. And one can not say that they are not trying to do more for the women competitions (which are a bit of Cinderellas in terms of... well... everything, besides interest from fans).


Well, from marketing point of view I am even more skeptical, because advertisers are regressing, unfortunately.
I think you will get advertisers from one country; you will retain only few biggest advertisers from other countries, and for sure you lose small advertisers from other countries, i.e. those who are not main sponsors of their teams, but they are still numerous and they all heavily chip in at the end of the day, looking locally and talking total numbers. To explain, just look at jerseys of your teams and think about those smaller sponsors, will they be able to pay court ads for Final 4 venue too? Not half of them. Their contracts cover only domestic court posters etc…
I believe I have some experience in advertising & media buying ;) so I believe I know the difference of what you can sell locally to small advertisers, and what is to be sold to big guns 8:)
That is why I wonder if them in EHF calculated it all right? I don't say they did not, if they provided sponsors from all countries, that is OFC different story that would make it all financially feasible. Still, experiments are not so welcome in business, and Final 4 is business from marketing point of view.

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Re: Final Four - Women's edition

Postby Bo$ko » Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:26 am

Final Four is a good option if there is a Group Stage with 24 teams. I'd like an idea with F4 but in Women CL it's really impossible. Since EHF cannot find 24 teams enough quality, this project has no sense.
Especially this year's system should not be changed that easy and suddenly.
For next season, it'd be ok new system but Main Round with 6 teams will destroy CWC which is on low level nowadays. Anyway,this is a chance for some instant teams such as Vardar to reach some fast success. IMO there will be lots of boring matches since 3rd ranked teams are for sure far from Final 4 favourites.
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Re: Final Four - Women's edition

Postby zotya94 » Thu Jul 25, 2013 11:03 am

Well, I dont know why would anyone write 4900 Hungarians and 100 CrnGorians but Papp László Sports Arena has more capacity it's like 12500 seats I guess probably less if it's an indoor sport like Handball, but Budapest is equally close to every country taking part in European handball and you could see our lovely parliament building .p, if it would not be in Budapest for me it would be kinda sad but,geographically it's a suitable decision I guess, anyways we will see what happens, I can only hope for a positive,rational outcome both on the side of availablity and efficiency and profitability.

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Re: Final Four - Women's edition

Postby John » Thu Jul 25, 2013 1:25 pm

zotya94 wrote:Well, I dont know why would anyone write 4900 Hungarians and 100 CrnGorians


I just picked random numbers.
People from Montenegro wouldn't come for the FF.
First of all there's the money issue, (ticket for the matches, trip to Hungary or any other country, hotel-hostel/motel,food).Why do you think the entrance is free for Buducnost's matches in CL??, second of all if Buducnost is not playing in the final no one would be interested to watch.

mikh wrote:Fair? Almost You forget about home-court advantage in the second match. So even this system is not fully fair.
Better? Can't see why. You'd have to give a reason for this. If it's your personal preference, that's a bit different.


Yes, it's my personal preference. It doesen't matter where the second match is played, two matches are played, on home and one away. So that's fair.

mikh wrote:Again, you should give a reason.
First you were complaining about less matches. PR + MR + 1/4 + F4 gives you a bit more matches. You could argue that it's a bit of a lazy system to cut down on teams (4 + 4 eliminated after each group round), but considering there are a lot of level teams right now, this will definitely make the competition more interesting.


Women's CL is weak, or at least a lot weaker than men's. Bosko gave a good reason and i agree. Yes, more matches will be played in MR if there were 6 teams, but not a lot quality matches. This is not EC. The first 2 teams should progress to the MR, the 3rd should go to CWC.

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Re: Final Four - Women's edition

Postby zotya94 » Thu Jul 25, 2013 9:58 pm

http://sportgeza.hu/kezilabda/hirek/201 ... bl-ben_is/

In this article there is a sentence which reads --> "Az EHF szeptember 10-ig várja a pályázatokat a rendezési jogért versenybe szálló szervezetektől, majd szeptember 20-án hoz döntést. Amennyiben nem érkezik megfelelő pályázat, a Final Fourt leghamarabb a 2014/2015-ös szezonban vezethetik be a női Bajnokok Ligájában."

In English it means. EHF would receive the bids till 10th of September, from those who would like to win the right of organising the FF. The decision will be made on the 20th of September. If they receive no bid good enough this years, they will introduce FF in the 2014/15 season, so I guess they take it seriously and it's not a random idea.

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Re: Final Four - Women's edition

Postby Germanicus » Fri Jul 26, 2013 9:08 pm

zotya94 wrote:In this article there is a sentence which reads

EHF, too, announced it some days ago, you don't need to quote Hungarian Internet sites ;-)
In conclusion, I declare that EHF must be destroyed

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Re: Final Four - Women's edition

Postby zotya94 » Fri Jul 26, 2013 10:33 pm

Lehetett volna maláj oldal is az információ volt a lényeg.

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Re: Final Four - Women's edition

Postby Mr. 007 » Fri Jul 26, 2013 10:44 pm

Well, maybe FF4 is better with less traveling expenses that will give more money in the bank for the clubs attending. What do I know...

I will not attend FF4 though, so it will be paid by TV for my part, but I guess that is where the future is for most sports anyway nowadays. Will miss the home matches OFC with LIVE handball, but what can u do about it...I will survive though, but spirit does die... :|


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